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Bob - yes, I think we are kindred spirits there. I have really only a few criteria when selecting a "classic": 1) It has to be historically "significant" - I put this in quotes because that's subjective, but important to me. It's why a Dino Ferrari is worth 2-3 x a Ferrari 308 (although I am not quite old enough to remember the Dino, I am old enough to remember the aftermath - it was lauded for designed, panned for having a "FIAT" engine) 2) It has to have performance that was respectable compared to it's contemporaries - it's what separates a 240Z from an Opel GT or Triumph GT6 3) It has to be a good value - again, that's a subjective rating depending on the buyer (see 2000GTs), but the 240Z is a GREAT value IMHO. So is the E-Type coupe. There's a ton more, you know we've had these discussions. My list is somewhat endless... As far as school, I am about 16 years out of college, but I loved my Deming study. As a Product Manager in the Technology field, his principles are so relevant, it hurts. In discussing him, I long to go back and re-read some of the texts I kept. I was actually thinking of writing a Product Management book that would be keeping with the Deming philosophy, certainly that of companies managing to a bottom line as opposed to the intangibles. I always respected Apple for this - their products have a "je ne sais quois" that differentiates them from the mainstream. I think we mentioned a few posts ago - the 350Z was, in my mind, a miss in terms of design. I would have prefered a little more retro in it. I do stil dig the newer Jaguar designs, especially the saloons - they look like they old cars. My only problem is I don't have enough money to have the stable I want. I am still fairly young, but with 2 young'uns, it will be hard. I DID snap up the Z and E since I knew appreciation was imminent and I wanted in. Unfortunately, there are quite a few more of these undervalued cars I would like to acquire!!!

Hey, this is a good thread - I have a 5-speed in my 240Z that I want to replace with a parted out 4-speed. The 4-speed is in my possession, but I want it rebuilt prior to dropping the 5-speed. I am in NJ - want to avoid shipping, so if there are any East Coast recommendations - that would be appreciated.

Carl, I am confused - $5,500 for the yellow Z you posted? Even with floorboard replacement, I'd think that's a pretty good deal, no? Never had to replace a floorboard, although I know it's not trivial. Rich

Bob - thx. I also agree with your comments on the Japanese auto industry. As a Product Manager (essentially a Marketing function), I am passionate about realization of a concept into a tangible product or service. Japan, after the war, was assisted by a team of people that included a guy named W. Edwards Deming - Deming was a proponent of something called TQM - total quality management, which was to assist corporations improve product testing, design, services, sales, etc. His principles were not widely adopted in the US, but he was a MAJOR contributor to the Japanese manufacturing machine. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (amongst others that include Matsushita/Panasonic, Sony, etc) applied his principles and you can see that in the quality of their product against those of other countries. If you are interested, look him up - in my profession, he is a legend, but it's amazing how few American companies adhere to his principles (and I've worked for GE, Dow Jones, Lucent, and a few others). To that end, that the success of Toyota - a giant - can be traced to humble origins such as the 2000GT seems to strike a chord with me. I see the 2000GT as a risky, bold move - something perhaps Toyota of 2006 would never do. That in and of itself seems to make the car "worth" more in my mind. There is an intangible here. If this same car were called the "Opel GT-R" or "Jag E-Type vII", maybe it's not the same. I am curious what a similar Prince badged car might be worth stateside (specifically one of the race vehicles like the R380). It is for this reason that I think the 240Z is undervalued and will see it's due. The car was a risky move that helped create a giant industry for Japan. Not too many people will spend the same premium for a Triumph or MG, so the history behind the car and company must be a contributing factor. Sorry to be long winded, this is quite a stimulating conversation.

If the Toyota driving experience was an event, then that certainly supports the aura around this car. As far as the money being chump change, you are correct. If someone wants something and money is not an object, they will get it. Since you are on the other side of the pond, Malcolm Glazer's takeover of Man U. ran $1.5B (not a typo). I know Man U. is a storied franchise, but $1.5B is a HUGE sum for ANY franchise (including the NY Yankees). To Glazer, it was nothing.

How about a merge of threads? Can you do "coloring book" on one of the pics from the Boobs thread?

I hate to dissent a little - the Toyota is STUNNING. A little less harmonious than an E-Type or contemporary Ferrari, but a nice looking car IMHO. Is it worth $250K? NO, and that I agree with - especially when compared to the legendary Ferrari Daytona, which is better looking, has much better performance, almost as exclusive, etc. This is the same question/comment I made with respect to the mid-year Corvette coupes to E-Type coupes - the Corvette was made in much higher quantities, yet today is worth double the E-Type. There are obvious reasons for that, especially since many of the boomers that grew up wanting one are buying now, essentially ballooning the price. The E-Type convertible was the more desirable "E", so that's the car that's in higher demand and is quite similar priced to a mid-years 'Vette. I would submit that folks like Keith Martin (who we have discussed before) and those like him are part of this. They tend to gush over cars like the 2000GT and can manipulate markets. In addition, not unlike in pro sports, there are some bidders that will pay whatever it takes to get an asset, effectively resetting the price expectation in the market. As an example, the recent Barrett-Jackson auction with the Olds F-88 Concept generated $3M (!!!). A rare and beautiful car indeed, but $3M? I don't see it, but that was the "going rate". Ferraris in the 80s were much the same. The question is - will the 2000GT bubble ever "burst"? I doubt it, given that most of the surviving examples are likely in good shape. It may mean good news for our Z's though, as invariably you can't talk 2000GT without at least a MENTION of the 240Z. Time will tell, but if ANYONE sees one of these for $50K, let me know - I'd be interested in purchasing it

Wow! $50,000 LESS than what it was worth? Amazing and likely the most collectible of production Japanese vehicles...

Stephen, Yes, I gotcha on that. When I first heard of the death of "Peter Brock", I thought of the BRE Peter Brock. I believe that BRE Peter Brock was "promised" the original US 2000GTs, but instead they went to Carroll Shelby. I suppose that is one reason BRE Peter Brock got Datsuns.... Rich

Thanks! Oh, and the Brock thing gets confusing - to clarify, we are referring to Pete Brock the V8 Supercar driver, not Pete Brock, the ascot-wearing, Cobra-designing, BRE 240Z, photographer-extraordinaire. Either way, it's sad to hear. Godspeed...

David, Look up McNutt Auto Transport - I used them to get my Z from Virginia to NJ. It was less than $500.00 IIRC. They use open trailers unless you specifiy otherwise, but shouldn't be an issue this time of year. I know an Auto guy - swears by them. They did right by me, give them a look. Rich

Does anyone have an ISBN number? Easier to order / locate. Bob - the 60's long nose/ short deck designs have always been amongst my favorites. A few other modern examples are the Jag XKR and Aston Martin V8 Vantage. It's a shame Jag punked out and equipped the XK with auto only, though. I agree with you as well on the 350Z - it's too quirky. With the whole "retro" thing in autos (Mustang, Challenger, Camaro, et al), it would be nice to see a modern interpretation of the 2000GT with the new Supra. I tell you this, the last Supra, while butt ugly, had AWESOME tailights that in my mind evoked the old designs. It may be odd to get excited about taillights, but they just looked "right". Nissan missed the mark and I like the G35 coupe much better. Maybe they'll think harder with the next gen, but I doubt it with where their designs have been going.

Steve, Ok - that makes sense. I would agree with your assessment, a #3 car as defined is what I am looking for. Same with my E-type - I want something I can enjoy, doesn't need to be a perfect resto. Thanks, Rich

Bob, Just noticed you had another '78 for sale? Is that the one you already sold? How does (did) it look? RIch

Bob, Original owner XKE with paperwork would be worth good money, assuming it was in good condition. I am simply amazed that a car as legendary as the "E" isn't commanding more money than a contemporary 'Vette, but that was enough for me to make the move. As a Z owner, the "E" would be incredibly familiar to you - (D)OHC inline six, 3 SU carbs, rust...you get the idea. From a visceral perspective, the "E" has it all over the "Z" - sitting in the car evokes ghosts of past, it oozes "cool". When the car was delivered, all my neighbors came out to ogle it. Sigh, I am car whore too! I love your eclectic collection, sounds like what I always wanted to build (it would include Lotus Europas, Opel GTs, Buick Regal Grand Nationals, a '32 Deuce Coupe, Ferraris..it goes on and on). I even possess an SCCA license thinking (stupidly) it would "get the jollies out" - how wrong that was...I became even MORE driven towards that money pit as well! I used to drag race, but road racing is infinitely more fn and challenging.. Not to get off topic, my apologies. Should anything change, I'll let you know. I'll live vicariously through your ad in the meantime

Carl, Have to agree with you - the person that passed this up is making a mistake. I would think a "refresh" could very well PASS 12K, so IMHO, this is a SCREAMING bargain. Let me ask a naive question - I suppose the pictures don't reveal the entire story, but what makes this a #3 car? Are there incorrect pieces? Cosmetically, it looks pretty good. As I said, this is naive, I don't profess to know how to appraise these, so I was curious. Rich

Well, I have been a good negotiator in my 14 years with my wife, enough to get the E-type, the Z, and have my half naked wife draped over said Z for the photo contest, so I can't complain. My appetite for autos is literally insatiable, I strive to be Jay Leno, Sir Anthony Bamford or Ralph Lauren! The E-type coupe is a gorgeous vehicle. I was fortunate that mine was very good cosmetically, which is one of the key areas. They are prone to rust, have ill fitting body panels and expensive to get right. Mechanically, my "E" needs some work, but thankfully, that's the "easy" part - they are generally bulletproof in that regard. I sit in the car at times and reminisce about my Dad's Austin Healey, as the cars smell similar (the leather). I got the "E" coupe as they were still cheap about 1-2 years ago. That's not really the case any longer, they are starting to rise, so I am lucky. Check out a similar years Corvette, in any condition and it's likely double the E's price. It really was a no-brainer purchase for me. Unfortunately, I need a daily driver, so I will be either buying a used Maxima, used GS 400 or a new Altima. Hence, the negotiations will not be successful to add another "project". Let me know if you have difficulty moving it, maybe I'll get inspired and try again...

Bob, I would love to take her back to New Jersey - alas, I would NEVER be able to convince the boss that it was worthwhile. The price seems right, and you've been honest in the ad, but I need to figure out how you swung 10 of those!!! Rich

Doug, Yep, that's the place! They have a nice red one for $249K (!!!) I think I said they are in Mass, the are in Maine (duh!). Take a look at the detail photos of the red car - I never knew the 2000GT had the twin access panels like the Z. I knew there were some similarities from the history/relationship, but the car looks more like a Z up close than I originally thought. Rich

If there's a knock on the car, it's the performance (or lack thereof) - even compared to its contemporaries. The problem Toyota had was the 2000GT was overpriced from day one. Keeping in mind the intent was for it to be a low volume product, but I don't think they intended to sell as few as they did. I believe it was about 1-2K MORE than an E-Type, which was not chump change in 1967. A comparable 1967 Corvette would dust it 10 ways to Sunday and was 1-2K CHEAPER than an E-Type. I am surprised no one has created a replica of this car given it's relatively high profile in terms of collector cars.

I might be in the minority here, but the James Bond convertible 2000GT is a dog compared to the coupe. Keep in mind, I am biased - I like the E-Type as a coupe, mid-year Corvette coupes, Ferrari Daytona coupes....blah blah - you get the idea. There was something awesome and mildly maturing in the 60's with respect to autos, amongst other things (music for example)...the 2000GT had such nice curves that lopping off the top almost seems sacreligious. There's an outfit in Massachusetts that is an authority on these cars. In fact, I believe they had one for sale a year or so ago for just short of $200K (in perfect condition). I'd kill for that one...

Old thread, good to see it alive. The pics of the 240Z next to the 2000GT are awesome, from the back it's hard to imagine a roof line so low to the ground (although obviously that's not a stock 2000GT). To each their own, but I always thought the 2000GT was a stunning design - in some ways it outshines my E-Type coupe, I would love to own one of those!!!

Dudes, This totally sucks! My 2 kids are old enough to know the "Crocodile Hunter", but too young to understand death... I loved Steve Irwin, I thought he was fantastic at what he did and how he interested people in animals, namely crocs. Unfortunately, his accident was such a freaky bad luck situation that those not in the know will assume it was his "fault". The reality is the guy knew his stuff, this was not a case of recklessness. My thoughts are with his family. God speed and CRIKEY!

I Googled this article, just get a link to the Sports and Exotic TOC, nothing else. Anyone scan it?

Sure do! One is kind of blurry, bad shot. Car is in nice shape cosmetically - interior is near perfect. Outside, the paint is good, not great (some minor peeling). Also, the bonnet is slightly mis-aligned, quite common on these cars. The engine turns, but doesn't start. It needs a complete mechanical refresh - I will rebuild the engine, new hoses, electrics, and suspension. That's going to take some time ($$$), but it's such a stunning car, I smile just sitting in it. If you look closely, you can also see my 1967 Honda CL77 Scrambler in the background