Hi all,

I'm in need of some management help. I have recently been made aware that we have a few competitors in the Microfiche CD market. Click here to see info on this product. While I knew of only one competitor (Courtesy Nissan), there seems to be some influx of people showing up on Ebay trying to do the same.

My question to all of you is, should I fight these people or just let it go? Fact of the matter is, we have been told by my contact at Nissan that we are the only organization authorized (via copyright release) to sell these products.

On these grounds, I can fight these competitors in order to keep our club online and supported by the revenue generated by the sales of this CD.

We were the first organization to come up with the microfiche CD idea. We worked hard on the product and we brought it to market. Now that it is out there in full force, what should we do?

I don't want to fight the other competitors on this because I believe we would all lose in the battle. Therefore, I need ideas. How do we take this situation and make the Z community a better place because of it? That's my entire reason for creating this club in the first place...... I hate trying to ward off my enemies

with sticks on my own. Instead, let's rally the troops and walk in with pitchforks and torches.

Bring on the ideas!

-- Moderator Mike

Mike,

I had a problem with a seller using a picture

of my Roadster he direct linked to a website

it was on. I emailed Ebay threatening to sue

them if it wasn't taken down. I tried to

email the seller and a bunch of the Roadster

mailing list did also. He never replied to

any of my requests. He then copied a picture

of my car and put in on his server. I was really

fuming by then. I didn't hear back from Ebay

after I sent the initial email to them. I looked

up Ebays phone number in the Yellow pages and called directly. I was able to get ahold of an operator right before they shut the switchboards

down for the night. She was awesome and had me call her again after she shut the system down and

she stayed on the line until I got a person to

help me. The customer service guy called me several times to verify information and at the

same time he shut down the auction. The seller was

warned about what he was doing.

Ebay does take these matters seriously if you take the time to prove to them that something isn't right. Try calling them instead of emailing though.

Hmmm How did I get this copy of Efast :-)

'Sup Mike...?

Long time no write:)

Ok seriously..

First of all I'd like to give a shout out to all of the talented, informative members that have responded and rallied around our fearless Leader, Mike. You guys are waaay supportive.

Second, let me just say that this whole situation bites the big one..Just when you think that you've created a world where the grass is greener and folks are able to pursue the life, liberty and the ability to provide z enthusiasts with a means to enhance what is already the best hobby/lifestyle in the world..(Z restoring,customizing, racing, driving) along comes some shmuck out to make a buck the easy(def: illegal) way..

Finally, while I agree with many of you and would like to see this @&%hole slingshotted into space by his pubes..I also agree with ZVoiture in that this must be handled correctly.

Mike a call directly to Ebay as well as Courtesy Nissan will probably answer all of your questions, both directly and indirectly. Once you have all of the facts the next steps will be considerably easier to determine. While phone calls to the proper authorities will most certainly put and end to this charade from ebay's standpoint but will also give you the ammunition that you will need for a litigation....

Mike, by no means did I mean for this to sound like you are in this on your own. You have a willing army of zealous, passionate Z enthusiasts to back you bro, including one dreadlocked warrior who doesn't have much legal acumen but can still write a mean -arse post..whew sorry about the lenght but that's what happens when you don't hear from me for a year..

Ak

Looks like we have yet another person selling microfiche on Ebay who has been in contact with us in the past.

Title of item: DATSUN 240Z, 260Z, 280Z Parts Catalog CD

Seller: fiche-market

Starts: May-26-02 06:48:19 PDT

Ends: May-31-02 06:48:19 PDT

Price: Starts at $36.95

To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1832096417

What is it about ethical business behavior that people just don't understand? I guess this is why attorneys exist.

It looks like we are in a predicament and there is really no way to win at this game unless we get nasty. I really don't want to go that route because I think there are better things to do with the club and the work I need to do on my Z's.

Whoever this fiche-market person is, he is also selling Corvette and 300zx microfiche cd's as well.

This idiot will probably start selling t-shirts, coffee mugs, hats, and license plate frames as soon as they become available our site.

Tossing in my 2¢:

First off, I do not think that going to e-Bay and bidding higher and then welching on the win is the way to go. That just compounds the issue and can subject the user/perpetrator to different legal ramnifications that may or may not be excused by the copyright infringement. Simply put, e-Bay and the other guy would be justified in either banning you or forcing you to pay for the item even though it's technically "illegal". Since it isn't an outright ILLEGAL item, i.e. drugs, guns, or some other prohibited substance, e-Bay will just say that it is ultimately up to the seller to determine whether or not the item is legal.

Next; from a comparison of the screenshots and the corresponding frames on my copy of Mike's CD it appears as though the version offered for sale on e-Bay is NOT a copy of 2400z.org's copy. I can give you the particulars, but if you check it out, you'll note the subtle differences in the scanned in sheets.

This may in fact be a copyright infringement but not against 240z.org, but rather against Nissan. Although you have been given license to distribute a copy of the microfiche in CD format, you need to ascertain if this other individual has not also been given license.

This may not be as far fetched as you think.

Consider this, Nissan Japan gives the ok to Mike and Nissan USA gives the ok to this other guy. Both hold letters from Nissan - *** saying it's ok to make a CD version of the microfiche that was produced 25 or so years ago. Has the copyright been updated recently? Is a copyright from 1975 STILL valid? When does an item fall into the public domain? (i.e. You don't have to pay anyone royalties for publishing the words to "Jingle Bells" or "Happy Birthday to You")

All of these are valid questions.

I would suggest that Mike approach the seller of the CD and just simply ask if he has a copyright release from Nissan to publish his CD. If the guy does not, then you could contact Nissan and see if they wish to pursue the matter. Unfortunately, if the guy developed his OWN copy, and did not copy yours, and you did not copyright your copy; then YOU don't have a copyright infringement case, what you have is a non-licensed (from Nissan) edition of the Parts Microfiche.

Now, before everyone starts flaming me because I won't support the popular notion of nukeing this guy consider this:

I see the current aftermarket headlight covers available for sale out of Japan, like I just got recently. They're not cheap. I look at the ones available from MSA / VB / and others. I figure out a method that can be construed as an amalgam of both methods, and I start producing and selling them on the internet.

Does the manufacturer in Japan or the source for the ones out of MSA / VB et al have the right to sue me for copyright or patent infringement; supposing they have done so?

Now, another case. What if I endeavour to copy a Factory Shop Manual for the 1971 240Z? Nissan no longer sells it. It is hard to find, and it is a desireable item. At the same time, someone goes to the trouble of getting an authorization letter from Nissan, but I don't. We're in competition, can he sue me to stop or is it up to Nissan? Whether or not this is actionable would be the basis for the suit, and that's up to the lawyers.

Just my 2¢

Also, if you check the links on his e-Bay auction, specifically the Flash Interface one, you'll note the inclusion of Courtesy Parts logo below, where if you click on it you arrive at their home page.

Also, there is a License document listed on the Flash interface, and although it doesn't come up, it might be interesting to see what it says.

I think we should poll amongst the users and see if anyone has bought the CD via Courtesy and check if it's the same one being offered for sale at e-Bay and Courtesy. Courtesy may in fact have ALSO received permission to copy / sell / distribute from Nissan.

Just another thought.

Originally posted by EScanlon

I think we should poll amongst the users and see if anyone has bought the CD via Courtesy and check if it's the same one being offered for sale at e-Bay and Courtesy. Courtesy may in fact have ALSO received permission to copy / sell / distribute from Nissan.

Courtesy approached me about selling our version of the CD. I agreed to work with them and we had a deal on the table. However, I never heard back from them and eventually saw that they were making their own CD.

Nonetheless, I became suspicious and bought a copy of their CD to make sure they were not copying our data. After a pretty intense check of their scans and navigation, I determined their CD is unique.

I have also been in contact with the person at Ebay. He is actually the developer for Courtesy Nissan. I've asked him three times if they have a LETTER or something from Nissan giving them the right to sell these products. No response.

I contacted Nissan Corp. and asked them if they approved Courtesy Nissan to sell this product. Their answer was no. In fact, Nissan Corp. told me that I am the only person they have allowed to do such a thing.

Awhile back I also approached a few gentlemen who were scanning the manual and selling it on a CD. I asked them if they had a copyright release and they said no. They then asked if they could use our copyright release and, perhaps, work on a joint project together. Again, I thought the idea was great and we proceeded to iron out the details. One day, the conversaions just dropped and they backed out of the deal.

So, it appears that we are the only organization with a copyright release to sell Nissan material on a CD. These other organizations might be working purely without any kind of release what-so-ever.

Nissan also confirms that a 'dealership' does not have an automatic copyright release to sell these products as well. Hopefully, Courtesy Nissan is aware of this. Somehow I don't think they are.

Anyway, enuf from me... I've rambled too much. It appears that these other CD's are not pirated from ours, they are just operating w/out any kind of permission from Nissan. While I can get frustrated at this, we really can't do anything about it. It's Nissan's issue. However, Nissan will be hearing from me, again.

I just want to make sure this doesn't blow up and wizz everyone off... I just hate the backstabbing that I've seen. It's too much for me to even comprehend.

The best thing we can do is stick together and support the club. I will continue to claim that we have the best CD on the market and it is approved for sale by Nissan.

Another good thing about this is the CD that Courtesy sells (and the Ebay fiche-market guy) is poor quality compared to ours. Their navigation is difficult to move through and their images aren't quite as good. I've already heard complaints about it and I've offered to exchange our CD with theirs in order to make sure our product gets out on the market.

[m]

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. First, being a truck driver, I'm not well versed in the laws, so not being a lawyer ( I do have morals) I can't help but think about the fact that no one has addressed the second and possibly most important aspect of what is going on.

1. Mike has obtained written permission from Nissan Corp. to distribute copies on CD of their microfiche. This is covered under copyright laws. Anyone who does not have written permission to distribute this is in violation of Federal Copyright Law.

2. Anyone distributing any material with the Nissan name or logo is also under trademark license. If these pirated or un-authorized versions have the Nissan/Datsun name anywhere they are infringing on Nissan's trademark name.

That's two federal laws they are violating if they do not have written permission from the license holder.

I think this matter is one for Ebay, and Nissan to look into. It would be no different than someone selling a home recorded copy of a movie. It's not legal. Period. The feds are constantly looking for pirated movies, videos and music, this is no different!

So unless these people who are producing these CD's can

produce written permission from Nissan allowing them to do so, they are in violation of the law. Courtesy Nissan or a private party, it doesn't matter, it needs to be brought to the attention of a lawyer and possible the FTC. You can not stop someone from selling a CD on Ebay that they bought, and now want to sell, unless they are claiming that these are something of their making.

I also am not a lawyer, but having read up on, and discussed with friends who are lawyers, I'll toss in my 2¢. So, for a fact, this is my opinion, and I've always stated that opinions are like @ss-h@les, every one has one, and the majority smell at some point or another.

So, 2MZ is correct. There is a copyright violation if either of those parties do NOT have license, permission, or the right to effect such copy.

A copy right is the right to restrict other people from copying, selling, producing or distributing, something that you did, that you did in fact declare as copyrighted. I'm not sure if you have to go through a legal process, office or what to effect that copyright, or can just simply post that this is mine, and I am stating my right of copyright.

After Jan 1 1978 Copyrights on items that are in fact COPYRIGHTED, are for the life of the author PLUS 50 years. After that they lose that original copyright. Now, note the date: 1-1-78

Also note that this is to items that YOU have created.

This CD is based on the Parts Microfiche created By/For Nissan Motor Co. While Mike holds the copyright to the copy he has generated, and he has a valid legal release from Nissan to make these electronic Media copies from the originals, his copyright extends only as far as the work HE did or had done. It does not automatically imbue upon him a copyright on the original work which it is founded on. Although Nissan is the owner / holder of the original copyright, unless Mike negotiated an EXCLUSIVE copyright to the microfiche, then it is up to Nissan to process and execute the complaint for copyright infringement. IF IN FACT A COPYRIGHT EXISTS.

And that is the critical statement.

"Works created on or after January 1, 1978, are not subject to renewal registration. As to works published or registered prior to January 1, 1978, renewal registration is optional after 28 years but does provide certain legal advantages. "

FAQ's on Copyrights from the US Government.

http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q1

Also there you will note that in order for a copyright to exist, the author must in fact, register it.

Now, here's another tidbit:

"Copyright does not protect ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something. You may express your ideas in writing or drawings and claim copyright in your description, but be aware that copyright will not protect the idea itself as revealed in your written or artistic work."

At best, what the other guys have done is copied the Microfiche, and whether legal or not is up to Nissan to pursue UNLESS like I said, Mike has an EXCLUSIVE right to publish the microfiche in CD form. Then he has the right to sue the other guys. But as far as the concept of putting the microfiches onto CD, nope not copyrightable.

Sorry

If Nissan granted only Mike Gholson the right to distribute the CD of the Parts Fiche (which is still Nissan property); then I should think that Nissan quite possibly has an interest in protecting that property from distribution via un-authorized persons. Maybe we can enlist some assistance from Nissan's legal department in stopping these foolio's from continueing to sell these bogus, unauthorized copies.

I'd hate for these guys to get away with ripping off Mike &/or Nissan.

Carl:(

Well, I would say what I think, but everybody else has kinda covered all of my thoughts so I wont bore you hehe

I would contact Ebay and Nissan. Furthermore, you might want to list your CD product on Ebay as well. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste too much of your time on this issue. Why?

You've got other, better things you could do to make money with this site.

Bad news is, I work for a large company too, I think that it is probably unlikely that this issue would get much attention from Nissan.

Remember, your goal is not to stop others from listing illegal CD's on Ebay. In the context of your overall strategy, I think that pirated CD's on Ebay is small potatoes. Your goal is to make money for your fine website by providing service to the Z-car niche. With that in mind, I suggest the following strategies:

1) I think you could make good money by coupling the CD with parts distributors such as Motorsport. IE, have a page with CD parts numbers, right next to links to parts sources. Make arrangements with the distributors for a cut of the money when someone links from your site to the seller.

2) You could also make money by having another page with similar links to companies who are skilled at making repairs to Z cars, and arrage a cut for referrals from your site.

I think these 2 services, properly executed, could give you a decent source of revenue, long term.

Oh, by the way, I am an MBA with a marketing concentration. Not trying to sound pretentious, but it's these kinds of business strategy problems that I deal with everyday, so I thought my 2 cents could be beneficial.

We see this kind of thing in ther business world all the time. My key point is that you should focus on your goal (revenue) and not the obstacle (pirated CD's.)

Good luck!

Erik