Handling physics: 240 style

[PearlBlueSoul]

Ok, I'm a complete newbie to this whole 240 scene. Watched it from the outside for numerous years and different people driving them, but it's only been now that I've considered buying one.

I'm looking into getting more heavily involved in racing and trying to build a career out of it somehow. Long shot, yeah, I know. In the process of trying to find a good track car I was told the 240Z was a good base for potential. I had heard in the past that 240s could generate substantial amounts of power, so that goes without asking. BUT, I was never told about their handling ability stock.

Aftermarket I generally assume to be 200% better than stock, but I'm more concerned with how well it's gonna perform in the months prior to me being able to upgrade it. While doubtful I'll get to do much to it at the initial purchase (also picking up a 250cc motorcycle. not cheep) I will be driving it on whatever condition it's in at that time.

Basically, is this car tail happy/neutral/understeers like a pig/what? Does it do well in a canyon run (for spirited weekend drives) or should I not attempt this before I can upgrade it a bit? How does it transition in corners, and does it brake fairly well?

These are just a few things I ask myself when I'm considering a car and what I expect from it. So, any info? Objectivity versus opinion is appreciated, but I totally understand the loyalty developed to a certain car that "fits you." the car on my homepage was like that with me.

Thanks!

[shock96]

Ok, here are my observations about the Z and comparisons to other cars of similar size.

I find the 240Z an excellent basis for a BUDGET racer/street machine. The suspension is very simple and very strong. It is easy to modify and reacts very well to coilovers and such.

The structure of the 240 leaves a bit to be desired. It is a flexible chassis made of some thin sheetmetal and it needs to be reinforced (IE: Cage).

The steering is rack and pinion and it is very tough and very quick (IMHO). The short steering knuckles are nice, but not necessary.

The weak point on the Z is the brakes. They can survive, but be ready to go thru pads and rotors.

I am a big guy, but the Z fits pretty well in the leg department, but the shoulder room is a bit tight.

Engine is bulletproof, even stock it takes a bunch to really blow it up.

My other experiences on the track include the Porsche 911 and BMW 325 (E30). They are as follows:

Porsche 911. Best basis for a race car if you want to make the big time. This is strictly an observation based on support and the motivation of the Porsche group. You see, amateur PCA race guys that are decent get asked to drive in the Rolex 24 and Le Mans. You don't see the Nissan guys doing that.

If you are a great driver in a Z, that is what you will be. If you are a great driver in a 911, you have a chance at a few rides and more exposure. The Z guys have no backing really. They are the budget guys that have fun, but get whipped by the $60,000 GT2/EIP/SPM cars. Don't get me wrong, I love my Z and I feel that I will be a threat to the 911 guys at the PCA events I will be attending, but I am expecting to get my arse handed to me by some well prepped early 911's in RS trim. They are faster than snot in the desert around a race track.

There is really nothing quite like a well done 911 on the track. 2200 lbs fighting weight, 240hp and brakes that are stronger than anything Nissan ever came out with. You might make the power (should get close), but you will never outbrake a 911 in a stock class. They can carry 10mph more into the turn and apex much later. And the engines make more torque than the Z, so they carry that speed on the exit. Handling is crisp and steady. Oversteer is a wonderful thing taken in moderation. Early 911's (1971 to 73) are a great car all the way around. But they are expensive to build. I figure that I will have about 1/2 of what I would have into a 911 in my Z. I expect to be slower though. We will see.

My buddy is currently racing a 1991 BMW 325IS in EIP and SPM in conference racing. It is built to the max and it is a very fast car. The engine makes similar power to the Z. The rear suspension is more sophisicated and the brakes are better. The car gets down to about 2600lbs in fighting weight so the Z has it a little easier. The BMW club takes it's racing easy. It is not as competitive as PCA (not by a long shot. Lots of type A's in PCA) so consequently you will have less exposure. The 325's are not very competitive anymore as the E36 chassis is now used. If you managed to win some Nationals in a E30 325, you would get some attention.

I hate to say it, but the fastest way to becoming a professional race car driver is to go the NASCAR route and change your name to Buck Futz and live in North Carolina. There is a proven stepping stone method to their madness and if you can stand hanging lefts all the time you might have a chance. It has many more sponsership opportunities than any other type of racing. It is not to expensive to run at first either. If you make it in NASCAR, you could then make a move to IMSA or something like that.

Mike

[PearlBlueSoul]

Herm....very well thought out. Sorta missed what I was asking for but I did get alot of info that I didn't expect. Thanks for the writeup on the cars you mentioned. Didn't know the porsche group was that tightly knit. Knew they were well known for being a unified club but not to that level.

Don't spose you could answer my other questions about handling perhaps (on a side note?). I don't think I'd be able to afford a porsche for a good while yet. much to my dismay...

[Zvoiture]

What's PCA? I'm used to hearing about POA around here...

steve77

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Porsche club of America.

blue Pearl Soul, he did answer your question with the facts of the Z car. And he threw in the 911 and 325 as well for good measure. The fact is you cannot pigeon hole the Z into thinking it oversteers/understeers/neutral by its very nature. You are obviously not going to leave it stock so he was unable to tell you how it may react. He told you that it was light, and that the chassis will need to be reinforced. Those are true no matter what suspension you decide to go with. He mentioned that good reliable power is around 240 HP, which is true as well, when the L24 is heavily modified. All depends on how the car is set up and how it is tuned to run. It can oversteer or understeer or both.

It depends on how you build it. Stock, it is very good.

He also told you about the brakes, they are adequate for the stock car with stock power. You can enhance its ability with lines and pads, etc, just like you can with other cars.

I will take issue with the assumption that aftermarket is 200% better. Some of the fastest 240Z's used all OEM parts just properly assembled and combined. You forget how many performance parts are available in the form of interchangeable parts from datsun. The engineering that went into this car was not trival.

What you need to know is that your talent will limit you more than any car you should choose.

Also, if you are serious about being a race car driver, I would recommend driving schools before you ever buy a car. Then I would recommend a miata, not a 39 year old car whose parts are starting to become harder to find.

It sounds more like you want a fun toy rather than a race car. Canyon runs have nothing to do with prepping a race car. If what you want is a canyon runner, then buy whatever car you want and have fun. If you are serious, then improve yourself first, then look into buying a car later that suits your style, location, budget, etc.

[jmortensen]

Don't you think the OP has probably figured it all out by now? He's had 8 years to mull it all over.

[TriDawgn]

Hahaha, well i guess by now we can ask how it went

[PearlBlueSoul]

Whoa, just got the notification on my phone and couldn't believe it. What I think is awesome, is someone actually took the time to reply to this thread as old as it was.

Thanks very much for the reply! I have to admit, the idea for this car didn't last long and as it was, I had an itch to scratch back then for another MR2 that hadn't been worked out. Not only this, but I just had aquired my first motorcycle around 1 month after I posted, so that consumed my time for quite a while...

...In returning back to the post, yes, I've come a bit further along since then in my understanding about cars in general. after the MR2 I picked up a 2000 Mazda Miata in 2005 and haven't looked back. A few years after I bought it (and a ton of canyon mileage between the MR2 and current Miata) I got involved with Cal Club region's AutoX club. Currently I'm ranked first after a 3 year absence in the sport. Pretty cool.

web.me.com/darionscard

As I said before, thanks again for posting! Not so sure about the Z at this point for obvious reasons but they are still very awesome cars. After the Miata, I'm deciding if I should sell it or part out what I don't need and build a Locost out of the rest. I love the locost idea, but it might not be practical (getting married this year!).

My my, how times do change...

[TriDawgn]

Whoa, i'm suprised you replied to a thread that old. Too bad things didnt work out with the z dream yet, but theres always time. However i supposed congrats are due... great to hear about the success in the motoring world and best of luck to you and your fiance.

[jmortensen]

Locost is one hell of a cool idea. If I ever give up on the Z, that's what I'll build next.