Rear Glass w/no defroster??

[sakijo]

You Aussies and Kiwis are confusing the issue at hand. They're talking about American (HLS30) cars and you're talking about Australia/New Zeland (HS30) cars.

[Zedrally]

Hi Miles, were just getting them back for all the confusion their given us in the past!!!!

[Carl Beck]

Hi moonpup (everyone):

I'm sure that you must have been badly mislead, confused by the subversive writings of Mr. Kawamata, Mr. Katayama, and indeed Mr. Matsuo on this subject .. Just like 99% of the rest of the world.

It's all been propaganda... marketing fluff... . We can't believe Mr. Matsuo when he documents his story of how the Z Car came about - - no, no, no... It has been deviously translated to fool the Americans. Nor indeed that pure marketeer Mr. Katayama.. (would you buy a used car from this man?)

Some of the troubling facts of the matter that we simply have to get over include :

In 1960 the first "Fair Lady" went on sale - built in Left-Hand-Drive only the SPL212. From 1960 though 1962 Nissan had built 695 sports cars and had exported 684 of them. Barely able to supply the huge Japanese Domestic Market with 11 sports cars!!

In 1963 (starting Oct. 62)... the Fairlady 1500 (aka Datsun 1500 roadster), really put Nissan in the Sports Car business. With production of some 6533 units in 63 and 64, they Exported 3887. Supplying the now sports car hungry JDM with 2646 units.

In 1965 as Mr. Matsuo took on his new assignment as Chief Of Design, for the Sports Car Styling Studio (staffed with a whapping 3 people)... Nissan Motors Ltd. built 4,066 Sports Cars.. of which 4,293 were exported. (so Domestic sales shrank to something like 673 units)

By 1966 as Mr. Matsuo decided to change his approach, and focus instead on the US Regulations and Katayam'a suggestions .. Nissan built 6105 sports cars and exported 5,922 of them. (so Domestic sales were something like 193 units). It becomes very obvious that what Nissan really needed at this point - is complete family of sports cars to satisfy such huge domestic and world wide demand.

In 1967 as Mr. Matsuo got Mr. Katayam's support for a new sports car for America, and the design evolved toward the car we know today as the Z Car. Nissan built 7622 sports cars and exported 6,714 of them (so Domestic Sales skyrocked to 948 units).

By 1968 as Nissan readied the Z Car for America, with a planned production of 20.000 units per year, the JDM Sports Car Market consumed a whapping 991 units of the 13,690 produced. (where do you suppose they all went?)

Based on selling 991 Sports Cars in Japan in 68 - makes you wonder why the Z was planned for initial production of 20,000 units per year ???

By the end of 1969 as Nissan put the Z Car into production.. uh as a "family of cars"... intended to sell broadly into that Japanese market, and oh, by the way sell as well into the "world export market "...da... the JDM demand for sports cars hit a total of 99 with the remaining 8,769 dumped overseas. Must have thrown a real scare into the market sales forecasters... can you see the panic on their faces?

Oh yes - that "World Market"... please, someone tell us where in the world in 1970 did Nissan have more than 50 Authorized DATSUN DEALERS in any one country, other than the 750 here in America - - maybe Canada... Australia maybe??? (anyone have a List of Authorized DATSUN Dealers from 1970 for Australia? - I can only find a couple of distributes there in 1970.)

So you see moonpup - we can't let the facts, nor the documented writings of the men involved confuse us. Can We???

FWIW,

Carl B.

[moonpup]

Orininally posted by: Carl Beck

I'm sure that you must have been badly mislead, confused

A big "Yahoo" to everything you said, except this.

[Zedrally]

huge big snip..

Australia maybe??? (anyone have a List of Authorized DATSUN Dealers from 1970 for Australia? - I can only find a couple of distributes there in 1970.)

FWIW,

Carl B.

Hi Carl, I didn't want to hijack the thread from it's original question, however as you have (I don't feel guilty about it now) I can explain to you why you didn't find a list of Authorised Dealers in Australia. There is no list from that period, the Dealers were appointed by the Distributor, you must remember the only presence Nissan had in Australia was through an appointed Distributor.

There generally was one in each State operating independantly to each other and importing directly from Japan. FWIW The population of Aust. at that time would have been equivilant to Tokyo, just to get an appropriate idea of scale. This incidentally would go a long way in explaining the importation of the C110 (again from memory) into South Australia, which was reported in an thread which attracted considerable debate earlier in the year.

The Distributor then appointed Dealers, these where located in large country towns, generally any town with a population greater than 2K already had a distributor of UK makes, the authorised dealer usually was an authorised Morris or Mini agent. Show rooms where mariginal, read generally no room, sales where by brochure. Sales reps generally went from town to town trying to interest any service station (as we called petrol stations/mechanics at the time) into becoming a Authorised Dealer, after all the start of the network had to begin somewhere. I re-call the Service Sation/Mechanic opposite (1 man band) where I grew up in the late 50's/early 60's had the "Authorised Dealership" for Rambler, only every sold one car and that was to himself!

Neon and other signs displaying Datsun Dealer started appearing in the mid 70's (not exactly sure of the date) after Nissan resumed distributors rights and started marketing in there own right. (I remember chasing a part for my 260 in 1978 in St Arnaud, pop. 1500 which had a Datsun Dealer) and there was a list provided in the service/handbook at that time.

Sorry for the hi-jack, perhaps Mike can move the thread and re-name it from your post as it is an interesting subject. I would be interested in reading from others in other countries what other vehicle makes where sold by their "Authorised Datsun Dealer"?

Regards

MikeN

[Carl Beck]

Thanks Mike

That is very interesting and it explains why I can't find a list of Authorized Datsun Dealers. As you may know, Mr. K started here in the US with about the same set-up. Datsuns being handled by distributors, and he too recruited Gas Service Stations among some of the first Dealers. The difference is he started that process here in 1960..... and finished that year with something like 23 "Authorized Datsun Dealers".... by the end of 1973 he had built that into a Dealer Network with over 950, now very successful Datsun Dealers.

It really is an amazing success story, supported by an even more amazing Corporate Strategic Plan, executed with boldness and precision... once the ball got rolling here. Not only in terms of sales, but the associated support - technical training, parts, transportation systems, capital investment, real estate accusations etc etc. Of course all along the way Toyota either lead or kept pretty close...

thanks for the information..

Carl

[Carl Beck]

So #1456 was the first to have a defroster.

HI Stephen (everyone):

Anyone else know who owned HLS30 01455?... the last car to arrive without the defroster? I'll give you a hint - he wrote a book about the Z's....

FWIW,

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

Hey, thanks for reminding me about the seat mounts. (Oh and yes, I was aware of the differences.)

Hummm...Another accommodation for the home market?

If you were aware of the Japanese-market seat mounts, then presumably you must have noticed a few other "accommodations" ( DESIGN CONCESSIONS - each way ) for both LHD and RHD versions, and mechanicals other than those seen on your HLS30-U? Perhaps you don't see them?

Here are some examples of the kind of misinformation and bias that might have misled you:

The Z Cars for Export were Left Hand Drive models - No production Right Hand Drive 240-Z's were "produced" until very late Jan or Feb of 1970. There are no 1969 RHD 240-Z's.

No Right Hand Drive Datsun 240-Z's were "produced" in 1969.

The first Right Hand Drive (HS30) 240-Z was produced in late Jan or Feb of 1970.

Everything about the history of the Z Car seems to prove it was "centered" solely around the USA market.

The history of the design and development, production and sales of the LHD Z - shows clearly that the "240-Z" is the "Daddy". I don't believe that's a personal "bias" - just a presentation of the facts.

Yes, the total story of the Z would have to include a short chapter about all the various minor incarnations for nitch markets. However if you think they are "as important", "as significant" as the HLS30 - - then I have to believe you have missed the real "Story Of The Z Car".

As the thread started with Kat's original post - it covered 1969 production. In that context "E" applied to the HLS30's - If we were talking about 1970 production then "E" would cover both HLS and HS models.

What I said was the 240-Z was specifically designed for the US market - and every other variation was simply a side benefit to Nissan of no where near the significance in the overall scheme of things.

The Fairlady Z's are interesting and they allowed Nissan to sell a few more cars in their home market - but your assertion that they were "as important", "as significant" or evenly weighted in the design consideration of the Z - are simply - well - your opinion. However I would suggest that your opinion is not based on any real facts nor sound logic.

The real story of the Z Car - is carried by the Datsun 240-Z - as specified, as designed, as built for the American market.

Did you spot the biggest lie in there? I'll quote it again for you:

................your assertion that they were "as important", "as significant" or evenly weighted in the design consideration of the Z - are simply - well - your opinion. However I would suggest that your opinion is not based on any real facts nor sound logic.

And that's all you need to remember about that particular commentator.

Alan T.

[moonpup]

Originally posted by: HS30-H

Oops...Too many re-quotes to requote!

With the exception of the RHD S30's being produced in 1969, I see nothing wrong with the other statements made by Mr. Beck that you quoted and I also see that once again you have provided no proof, either verifiably or logically, that these other statements are in anyway incorrect.

As for the RHD in 69 statements, I do believe it was only recently that possible verifiable information has come forth to presumably disprove Mr. Beck and that when those statements were made by Mr. Beck, this "new" information had not yet been made public.

Now, since most companies that make a product for the public have a specific market that they will target, could you kindly inform all of us in your opinion just what market Nissan was targeting for the production of the S30.

Please make your argument as logically as you can, as I don't believe you or anyone else for that matter has yet to uncover any verifiable proof.

Oh.. One other thing regarding the seat mount statement made by you that I quoted. Could you please explain what "normal" meant in your statement "could be unbolted and moved several cm forward of the "normal" position."

Or why the Japanese market needed an option to have the seat moved forward of its "usual export position" if let's say the target market was in fact the JDM?

Sorry, you never answered that and I was just curious.

[Carl Beck]

Hi moompup:

The quotes of mine related to Production of Right Hand Drive 240-Z's in 1969 - that Alan posted - were from 2003 (see thread referred to below)..... If you follow that thread, you will see that as the subject evolved over the years - I did in fact agree that it was possible cars before HS30 00004 were made - I also went on to explain that my main concern was to dispel the myth that existed in Australia that they had received any 69 Production 240-Z's.

4-02-06 Post #19

<a href=http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20843&page=2>http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20843&page=2</a>

Hi Alan (everyone)

Yes, while it could be true that HS30 00003 started production in 69, we have not yet found the car to be in existence. As you pointed out in an earlier thread - Nissan's publications can contain a lot of mistakes and mis-information.

The primary reason for that statement, was to debunk the common Myth that the first 500 "HS30" Z's were produced in 1969. For years we saw HS30's advertised For Sale in Australia/NZ with VIN's between HS30 00004 - HS30 00500 represented as being 1969 Production Year cars... which certainly was not the case.

We do have HS30 00004 and we (its current owner at the time and I ) agreed that the car was most likely produced in Jan. or Feb. of 1970. Based, among other things, on its original engine serial number and his memory of when it arrived in Australia mid-1970.

Some of the US Nissan Publications also show production of units sold to the public - starting at HLS30 00013. So far we have not been able to find the car nor any record of it being sold.

So are HS30 00003 and HLS30 00013 thru 00015 Myths?... could be - but so far we list what we can find.

FWIW,

Carl B.

As the information gathered by Kats in Japan years later has shown - there were at least two Pre-Production or Production Prototypes built in 69.. ie HS30 00001 and 00002. We are still waiting to see if we can find some documentation on 00003 - which is shown in some Nissan Publications as being the first Production vehicle (released to the public).

I belive that all the other quotes are on the money.

This "family of cars from the beginning", "unanticipated demand", etc etc dribble - not only greatly distorts the actual design, development and production processes, it refutes the most significant accomplishments of the men involved and completely misses the most amazing aspect of this historic automobile.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

With the exception of the RHD S30's being produced in 1969, I see nothing wrong with the other statements made by Mr. Beck that you quoted and I also see that once again you have provided no proof, either verifiably or logically, that these other statements are in anyway incorrect.

Er, was it news to you that RHD S30-series Z cars were produced in 1969? If so, I respectfully suggest that you might like to do a little catch-up research ( you might like to start with the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show ).

As for the RHD in 69 statements, I do believe it was only recently that possible verifiable information has come forth to presumably disprove Mr. Beck and that when those statements were made by Mr. Beck, this "new" information had not yet been made public.

There you go again. "RHD in 1969" is well documented common knowledge. The problem is that you seem to have that sad affliction known as 'Beck-O-Vision', which manifests itself as an inability to understand that the HLS30-U is an S30-series Z, but the S30-series is not an HLS30-U or indeed a '240Z' ( of any denomination ).

You get the point? Don't write "240Z" when you mean 'S30' and "S30" when you mean '240Z' ( and don't forget to be specific about which type of '240Z' you mean ).

Now, since most companies that make a product for the public have a specific market that they will target, could you kindly inform all of us in your opinion just what market Nissan was targeting for the production of the S30.

Would you like to rephrase that after reading my advice?

The answer is of course that Nissan was targeting several markets with the S30-series Z models. You might have meant to ask in which particular market Nissan was expecting the majority of sales to be made ( yes? ) - and of course that would be the USA, the market where one particular type of S30-series Z cars was aimed at ( the HLS30-U ).

Please make your argument as logically as you can, as I don't believe you or anyone else for that matter has yet to uncover any verifiable proof.

. "Verifiable proof" of what exactly?

You only have to look closely at your car to see the evidence that the S30-series Z car was designed and manufactured with more than one target market in mind, and for more than one single variant to be produced at the same time. Maybe you have not seen enough other variants contemporary with your HLS30-U to fully comprehend this?

[Oh.. One other thing regarding the seat mount statement made by you that I quoted. Could you please explain what "normal" meant in your statement "could be unbolted and moved several cm forward of the "normal" position."

I believe ( as far as I remember ) that I was explaining their presence in the Japanese-market cars to somebody that had not seen or heard of them before, and who was at the time the owner of an Australian market model. I think it should be clear to you what "normal" in that particular context would be. It is a question of perspective.

Or why the Japanese market needed an option to have the seat moved forward of its "usual export position" if let's say the target market was in fact the JDM?

Sorry, you never answered that and I was just curious.

You dug a hole and I just stepped over it. Be careful you don't fall in it yourself.........

The S30-series Z was a whole family of cars. It is not ME that is telling anyone otherwise. The extra holes in your seat mounts would tell you something if you opened your mind to it - just like the question that started this whole thread off. 26th-Z was very eloquent in his reply, so if you don't like this particular piano player then I suggest you might listen to the way 26th-Z plays the same tune.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Hi moompup:

The quotes of mine related to Production of Right Hand Drive 240-Z's in 1969 - that Alan posted - were from 2003 (see thread referred to below)..... If you follow that thread, you will see that as the subject evolved over the years - I did in fact agree that it was possible cars before HS30 00004 were made - I also went on to explain that my main concern was to dispel the myth that existed in Australia that they had received any 69 Production 240-Z's.

This was not long after you finally realised that the 'HS30' and 'HLS30' VIN prefixes ( not to mention the 'S30' and 'PS30' ) each had their own body serial number sequences, wasn't it?

I belive that all the other quotes are on the money.

I'll keep quoting you then. It adds perspective.

This "family of cars from the beginning", "unanticipated demand", etc etc dribble - not only greatly distorts the actual design, development and production processes, it refutes the most significant accomplishments of the men involved and completely misses the most amazing aspect of this historic automobile.

FWIW,

Carl B.

"Dribble"?

Carl, you make your own big contributions to the myths that surround these cars.

Refusing to acknowledge the S30-series Z as a "family" of variants is possibly the biggest single mark of disrespect you could make to the engineers and designers that worked on the project. Next time you meet Matsuo san you might like to ask him ( face to face ) what he thinks of your "American car, made in Japan" quote. He already told me what he thinks of it.

If you want to use the quote and still keep a straight face, you might like to apply it ONLY to the HLS30-U model.

Alan T.