Looking for some info on these cars

[hls30.com]

Show me how a properly engineered solid axle can outperform a properly engineered IRS on any conventional four wheeled production vehicle with the same center of gravity and the same conventional automotive tires-I can't wrap my head around it, and I want to understand and I don't! Feel free to direct me to an article, Magazine, or book, Just point me in the right direction-preferably without using your middle finger!

Will

Edited December 3, 2008 by hls30.com

[JonnyRock]

Chris, I'm sorry but Stephen and Will are right. While there are some great cars that utilize a live rear axle, there's no way that they can handle as well as the best IRS vehicles. It's simple physics (although it does get complicated when you're talking about roll center and handling characteristics). And it's good that you bring up the Mustang, because just about every comparison test in any magazine that puts one up against a four-wheel independent suspensioned car notes that the mustang does well in spite of it's rear axle, not because of it. But it can't compare to the IS setup.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

In Chris's defense, he did say that he feels the Z IRS in particular is a little dated and not as efficient as others. I would think the Zs suspension design is not so bad considering how many SCCA championships it won. So he never said that a well engineered solid axle car is just as good as a well engineered IRS car. He just said that not every IRS car can outhandle a Solid rear axle car. Which is true, but its not a black and white answer.

I did make some sweeping generalizations, and for that I do apologize. I fell victim to low brow, lazy posting, which I am usually careful not to do. Sorry.

I will concede that there are probably a few live axle cars out there that can outhandle a portion of the IRS cars. I would wager that those cars had many dollars of development into them. Its never a one to one when comparing cars. And since there is not one brand of car with both a solid rear axle and a IRS setup as an option (other than that Cobra, right) any direct comparison is sort of apples to pears.

Next point, you mentioned that all the cars I listed are mid engined. Is the arguement your making that if they had a different layout F1 cars would use a solid rear axle?

I would think that cant possibly be what you meant by that.

But assuming you did,lets take the BMW. Uber dollars of development and not a single live axle car in the bunch. Surly if they could post better numbers they would use one. But they do not. Neither does Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Mercedes, every super car in the world, etc.

Lives axles are in the same boat in my opinion as pushrod V8's. VERY effective and reliable (i.e. LS1), but dated technology that is past its prime. Both of them can be made to work very well in different applications, but both have been replaced by better designs.

To sum up, I did not say IRS is the ONLY design that will work. I said IRS is the best design. A live axle will do the job adequately but its not the best solution for the highest level of handling. I just dont see any way that statement is wrong.

[JonnyRock]

Lives axles are in the same boat in my opinion as pushrod V8's. VERY effective and reliable (i.e. LS1), but dated technology that is past its prime. Both of them can be made to work very well in different applications, but both have been replaced by better designs.

Now now, lets not start throwing about the "Pushrods are dead" mantra. Take a good look at the LS9 and then tell me it's a lesser technological feat than other comparable engines. 638 hp, 604 lb-ft of twist, 20mpg, daily driveable, and ULEV II emissions rated. Those numbers are nothing to sneeze at.

[Zedyone_kenobi]

No they are not. In the Corvette the LS9 does a pretty good job. But since when does a 6.2 liter engine that is supercharged have any problems making 600+ HP. Far from a technological feat. As far as mileage, um.... one word, gearing.

I think the LS9 in the ZR1 is a fine package, and I would dearly want one. However, its still a knuckle dragger in my opinion. I would be okay with a knuckle dragger mind you, but its far from anything ground breaking. I like the technical wizbangs found in cars like the AMG and the M5. Tout their large packaging, and weight all you want, but they are engineering marvels. The LS9 is just a supercharged 'small' block. Been there done that. Its brute force nicely packaged.

Again, pushrods are on the way out. They are just not as efficient as smaller displacement V8's with DOHC. I have had this argument a hundred different times. I have been called every name under the sun.

There is little I do not know about the LS series of engines... all of them. And I am telling you that their time is limited. They need to do more with less. Not just keep making engines bigger.

The new direct injected V6 in the upcoming Camaro is a perfect example. 305 HP, and from what I hear a very nice power band. Plus it gets decent mileage. THrow 2 more cylinders on that, and I am sold.

Drop the BMW M5 V10 into a car that weights 3300 lbs, and I think you will see a revolutionary automobile born.

[Tarmac]

I was planing on replacing the wheel bearings, springs, struts etc on my Z

Just wondering.... how is it less expensive to remove the entire rear end of my car and replace it with a new (solid axle) one? What will I gain if I do it? Is there a weight savings involved? What about comfort on a pothole riddled road?

Please post some pics, links, price lists and hopefully a thread from someone who has done this swap.

[JonnyRock]

I was planing on replacing the wheel bearings, springs, struts etc on my Z

Just wondering.... how is it less expensive to remove the entire rear end of my car and replace it with a new (solid axle) one? What will I gain if I do it? Is there a weight savings involved? What about comfort on a pothole riddled road?

Please post some pics, links, price lists and hopefully a thread from someone who has done this swap.

If you're interested in a live axle swap, you should head over to hybridz.org. The vast majority of members here haven't even considered taking out the IRS. In my opinion, don't do it. These cars were not designed for it, and unless you're putting in a 900hp small block, there's no reason to go that route.