Interior Ergonomics

[Alfadog]

I think you're missing the whole point...

Alan has stated numerous times he isn't after production figures and which version is the 'most important'...

What you have stated is all true and not much of it is arguable. HOWEVER I do think one thing you said I disagree to:

"the RHD car is an important part of the Z history. But, like Left handed people in the human population, it is in the minority"

Just because they were made in fewer numbers doesn't mean to say they are any less important. Sure the car was designed with America in mind (no one denies that here correct me if im wrong), but you must remember that they thought of the RHD markets as well. The RHD cars are no less of a car than the LHD cars - IN FACT, the spec levels clearly show that they were, for the first few years, better-equipt.

That's not the point of the discussion though. Back to interior mysteries...

[Doehring]

Alan,

my first 260Z 2+2 had the foot rest and I didn't order it as an extra. I'm not shure, but I think all german Zs had it.

Rolf

[Cuong Nguyen]

Hi All,

Sorry EScanlon, if you thought that the first 500 cars exported went to the US, that is not necessarily correct at all. That may well be the case for HLS cars, but don't forget that Australia has many cars that are under the 500 build number also, HS cars. Whether they were made concurrently on the production lines or not will determine which cars left the shores of Japan first, HLS cars or HS cars?

So how can we say that the 1st 500 cars exported went to the US? I disagree on that part...

[Doehring]

Here in Germany the few imported 240Zs had the factory comp.close ratio gearbox, the 3,9:1 diff. and 195/70-14 tires on alloy rims. Same was to all 260Z 2+2.

My '82 280ZX 2+2 came with the factory comp. wide ratio gearbox and the 3,7 R2oo and 205/70-14. No extra orders!

in www.geocities.com/z_design_studio/ you can see the speed calculation for these sets.

[HS30-H]

The first 500 S30-series Z cars EXPORTED were sent to the USA / North American market. These were not the first 500 S30-series Z's MADE. Even the LOWEST "HLS30" VIN number ( lets say for the sake of argument that "HLS30-00001" actually got sold to the public ) will not actually prove that the car was made before "S30-00001" or "PS30-00001", or even "HS30-00001".

That's the whole point of the gripe about Z history being written around the Export cars - and the HLS30 in particular. English-language history writes the HLS30 "240Z" as the first of the breed or some kind of Darwinian ancestor to ALL the S30-series variants. Thats just not true.

The S30 series Z was designed in Japan. It was made in Japan. It was put on show to the general public for the first time in Japan. RHD S30-series Z cars were sold to the general public first in Japan, and therefore RHD S30-series Z cars ( both Fairlady Z and Z-L, and 432 and 432R ) were being made on the production line either before or at the same time as the HLS30 "240Z" model.

I have been assured by an original Z production line worker in Japan that the Export RHD version of the "240Z" ( the "HS30" ) was 'productionised" - or finalised for the assembly line - at the same time as the other models, but the first production of cars for sale to the general public was delayed. Apparently, this was due to production line space and the fact that the HS30 had to conform to Type Approval laws for both the Australian / NZ and UK markets ( causing spec. changes in lighting ).

Many people seem to believe that the S30-series Z car was designed AS an LHD car, rather than either being designed for both LHD and RHD use, or designed initially as an RHD and productionised with an LHD version. For those people I would like to post the following photos. I have more - but space here is slightly restrictive and I think that these three might help to illustrate my points. Here's the first: its a styling sketch from the late 1965 / early 1966 period by Yoshihiko Matsuo. Notice that he has drawn an RHD car:

[HS30-H]

....and here's the second photo. Its a prototype from around early 1966. This was before the design was made wider, and a few detail changes were made. It is also RHD:

[HS30-H]

....and here's the third photo. Its one of the prototypes from around mid 1968, and you can see that its getting really close to the final design. Notice that it too is RHD:

[HS30-H]

I'm going to post a photo of one of the cars on Nissan's show stand at the 16th Tokyo Motor Show, which ran from 24th October to 6th November 1969.

There were quite a few cars on the stand, and a lot of them were S30-series Z cars. They even showed an "Export" version ( as our colleague Kats recently pointed out ) and both a 432 ( "PS30" ) and 432-R ( "PS30-SB" ).

I just wanted to post this picture to illustrate the 1969 show and its date:

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by Doehring

Here in Germany the few imported 240Zs had the factory comp.close ratio gearbox, the 3,9:1 diff. and 195/70-14 tires on alloy rims. Same was to all 260Z 2+2.

My '82 280ZX 2+2 came with the factory comp. wide ratio gearbox and the 3,7 R2oo and 205/70-14. No extra orders!

in www.geocities.com/z_design_studio/ you can see the speed calculation for these sets.

Hi Rolf,

Yes, almost all markets except the USA / North American got the close-ratio FS5C71-A transmission and a suitable diff ratio right from the beginning of sales. This is not news to those of us in the UK, Australia and NZ ( and yourself in Germany ) - but it does seem to surprise a few American owners, a lot of whom seem to be searching for 5-speeds and 3.9 diff. ratios if posts on this site and others are anything to go by.

When the "B" type ( 'bent stick' ) transmissions were introduced, the USA / North American market was STILL stuck with a 4-speed - while the rest of the Z world got the close-ratio "FS5C71-B", again with quite nicely-spaced close ratios. It seems that the "FS5W71-B" 'wide' ratio 5-speed was the first 5-speed to be offered in a car ( as opposed to the Datsun Competition lists ) in the USA / North American market. Is that correct?

Interesting that your German-market GRLS30 had the passenger footrest fitted to it. By that time lots of funny things were happening at the factory. We have seen hybrid 240Z / 260Z cars here in the UK that shared parts of both models. All very strange, and it makes a nonsense of any factory data that you try to refer to when you need parts for these hybrid models.

Cheers!

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by EScanlon

Hyper-snip by Alan; Now, looking at the production figures cited at www.zhome.com, (http://zhome.com/History/Zproduction.html) and presuming that their quote saying that they are from a Nissan publication is true, we can say the following things:

The first 500 Z cars EXPORTED went to the U.S.

This doesn't say that the first 500 manufactured went to the U.S. althouth the VIN numbers seem to point that way. VIN enumeration has been discussed, and Alan is much more knowledgeable about this than I am, but it appears that the first 500 VIN's did go to the U.S.. Alan please correct me if I'm wrong.

Enrique, you are quoting zhome.

zhome in turn is quoting a famously wizz-poor book that was written by somebody in the corporation that had limited access to the facts, and was primarily engaged in making advertising bumph for the 280ZX. I don't blame zhome for quoting the figures ( there's not a lot else to go on and it all seems nice and tidy ) - but the figures are WRONG. That book is a perfect example of the lovely word "revisionism" that you dropped into one of your previous posts. Isn't it quite clear to all by now that Nissan Japan were completely disorganised in their record-keeping system around the late Sixties and early Seventies period? This might seem most un-Japanese to many people, but its famously true and rather well-known amongst Japanese Z-enthusiasts that I have spoken to.

If the figures in that list were true, then all the RHD cars that I have seen in 1969 publications such as Car Graphic, Playdrive, Auto Sport and Auto Technic ( and including the cars on the show stand at the Tokyo Motor Show of 1969 that I posted a photo of above ) must be either fakes or figments of somebody's imagination. Suffice to say that the figures in the "280ZX" book are just plain inaccurate.............

In fact, some of those "in the know" have hinted to me that Nissan did indeed know pretty much what they produced, but have only ever published what they wanted to be known. I'm not hinting at an Enron-sized scandal, but ask any accountant if the figures he writes in a ledger are 100% true. For my part, I believe in ****-ups rather than conspiracies. Chaos theory is usually king in this kind of situation.

Just to put it straight once again in case anyone misunderstands that "first 500 VINs went to America" type of quote - the "HLS30" had its OWN numbering sequence. The S30-series Z range was like a pack of playing cards. Just because there's a Jack of Diamonds it doesn't mean that there are not Jacks of other suits. As I have written on this site many times before, theoretically there would have been individual cars in existence with the numbers S30-00240, PS30-00240, HLS30-00240 and HS30-00240. From physical evidence provided by cars that are still in existence, its possible to deduct that HS30-00240 was made AFTER the other three - but most definitely NOT that HLS30-00240 preceded the other two.

Here's something that I don't think I've ever written here before. As far as Nissan Japan were concerned in 1969, the "star of the show" in their range was the 432. They had no idea that the HLS30 "240Z" was going to be such a runaway success ( although you can bet that they were HOPING it would be just as successful as Katayama was telling them it would be ) - and the main focus of the Japanese press coverage and public interest at the launch of the range was the most glamorous and exotic of them all - the 432. Of course, if you want to JUST look at sales figures as a mark of success or failure, then the 432 would be classed as the latter ( McDonalds syndrome ).

By arguing the case for the RHD cars so strongly, it might be misconstrued that I am trying to prove that the RHD cars were in some way superior to the LHD cars. I'd rather let their specifications speak for themselves and let people decide what they prefer to believe in that respect ( both variants have advantages and disadvantages ). What I think is wrong, and what I am trying to even up the score on, is the unfair emphasis in the written history of the S30-series Z on just one local market variant ( yes - the market that was bigger than all the others combined ).

That's why all the preceding talk of quantity and numbers is missing the point. That part of the story is a 'no contest' - in the same way that McDonald's would win a Michelin star if the quantity of hamburgers sold was part of the judging process.

Yours etc,

Alan T.

[EScanlon]

=====Interjected Comment

I hope that everyone understands that I'm not trying to put down ANY model of the Z. I like them all, and wish I had the money, garage space and TIME to own one of each variant and year. Sadly, I must be satisfied with the one I own, and hopefully my owner someday will loosen the pursestrings and allow me to own a second one.

As far as RHD and LHD, I think that they are BOTH important. I too would like to investigate and document all the subtle little differences amongst the different production models, whether for export or not.

If by stirring up the "fire" I've caused sparks to fly, it isn't because I hope to burn down anyone else's opinion or emphasize mine. If anything, look at the scope of this post and see if we haven't made some very interesting reading.

That Zhome has the wrong information, and I inadvertently propagated it, is my mistake in propagating. Unfortunately, with so much disinformation out there, it is next to impossible to discern what is factual, apocryphial or opinion. This lack of definitive information can only be blamed on Nissan. But then again, like any other major corporation, it can't. Trying to document which specific VIN number got the last or the first of a specific accessory, which one was for export, which one was for home market, which one was ..... Would make any Database Manager insane.

It is this specific type of discussion that can help weed out those bits of disinformation that are out there. Sadly, there are few instances of this being discussed intelligently without it descending into a shouting match over perceived slights.

So, my apologies for quoting inaccurate data. Sadly, I had no way of knowing that it was inaccurate. Unfortunately, in order to catalog, document, and correct all the incorrect information that IS out there would be a task for a lifetime.

So, I join threads such as this one in hopes of bettering my understanding and knowledge.

Enrique Scanlon

=====Back to the thread

[HS30-H]

Amen to all that you just said, and very well put too Enrique.

It is a mystery as to what happened to the fine old art of Debate Without Confrontation. I remember one of my very first trips to Paris ( years ago - when I still had a hair-style ), when my friend and I were looking for a place to get a late-night drink in one of the dingier parts of St. Germain. We ended up in a very odd little bar, one of those places where the locals look around and go all quiet when you walk in the door. We decided to ask for some advice on what to drink, and the evening just became better and better. We got into all sorts of debates with the locals ( including the old chestnut of Winston Churchill vs. Charles De Gaulle ) and things got discussed quite passionately, not always eloquently, but the opinions of others were patiently listened to. In the end the whole lot of us were turfed out into the street at 5am by the owner - all on first-name terms, temporarily friends for life and with a new insight into eachother's thinking. If we had tried that in our own home town, I think we would have been in a fight before Midnight!

It is indeed Nissan's fault that there are not any accurate production records for the S30-series Z ( and many other of their models ). Local market importers sometimes seem to have a better idea and more information on what they received than Nissan do of what they sent there. Australia seems to be a particularly good example of this.

A good example of just how stupid Nissan were ( if a giant corporation can be called "stupid" ) is the way that they allowed the myth about Goertz to become bigger and bigger until its now almost irrefutable fact. Poor old Mr Matsuo was left out in the cold for so long, and now if you tell people he headed the design team of the Z they will not believe you. How dumb of Nissan to let that happen.

I have a feeling that the "Task of a Lifetime" is a bit of an understatement when it comes to the History of this car. I myself have been gathering information on the area that I am particularly interested in ( especially the Factory race and rally cars ) but feel a very very long way from knowing even half the story. If I felt I had enough accurate information on that area I might even try to make an attempt at putting together a little book or booklet on the subject. Suffice to say that I still feel a very long way away from that day.

I think the fact that the story of the car holds so much mystery and intrigue must be one of the reasons that I like it so much.

Cheers!

Alan T.