Guess what these are and from what engine?

[Captain Obvious]

Another data point to help corroborate the lineage.

Here's a video where they talk about problems with the oil spray bars. Proof???  Hahaha!!

 

[HS30-H]

This is hardly 'new news' though, is it? It's well known that other engine manufacturers were inspired by the same Mercedes Benz valvetrain designs. Prince Motor Co. apparently paid to license some of the MB patents. You never hear the same said about Nissan, or even any whisper of litigation, so I wonder if MB ever fully patented those particular details that are being recognised here? And whose designs *inspired* MB? There wasn't that much new under the sun in OHV valvetrain design by that time...

What's not being discussed here is the big layout difference. The Mercedes M180 engine was conceived and designed primarily for use in LHD vehicles, whilst the Nissan L-gata range was conceived and designed primarily for use in RHD vehicles.  

[240260280]

In design, there are similarities, and then there are nearly identical copies.  One occurs from convergent evolution, the other occurs from licensing, from disregard for licensing, or from expired patents.  I don't know the history of these parts but they are all nearly identical so I assume they occurred via Prince's licenses.  Regardless, our engines have too much in common with these early vintage MB's to be ignored; rather, I think, it should be proclaimed.

[HS30-H]

16 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

I don't know the history of these parts but they are all nearly identical so I assume they occurred via Prince's licenses.

PMC's licensing of MB patented details (if it even happened in the way being assumed...) related to their G7 six and pre-dated their merger with Nissan by several years. Nissan's L-gata (starting with the L20 six of '64) was up and running way, way before their merger with PMC. 

What parts exactly are you pointing at being "nearly identical"? The cam followers look very close, as indeed do the cam follower pivots. Cam towers and oil spray bar? Duplex chain cam drive and chain tensioning? Combined oil pump drive and distributor drive via shaft taken off crank was not an MB first. The valve layout of the M180 is completely different, as is port shape and layout. 

These types of discussions too often descend into the old "Japanese copycats" type accusations. It's easier for people to package it up that way and file it neatly. I think the truth is a bit more complex than that. There are still a lot of post-war nation and industry rebuilding angles left undiscussed. A dear friend of my wife's family - a Japanese engineer who graduated from the Japanese Imperial Navy's technical school as an aircraft engine specialist and who joined Nakajima Hikoki in 1944 - was working with Japanese battery manufacturer Yuasa in the immediate post-war years. By the late 1940s Japanese and German industrial concerns, having a pre-war history of Axis co-operation and a shared necessity of post-war rebuilding from total devastation, were in fairly close contact and our friend was sent - along with several of his colleagues - to Mercedes-Benz in Stuttgart, Germany to work with M-B engineers for several months. He had some very interesting stories to tell. Other Japanese and German companies were doing similar personnel exchanges, and were sharing for the common good.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it's relevant to the discussion of 1940s and 1950s technology and is worth bearing in mind.            

[Reptoid Overlords]

I have often wondered if AMC's 242 engine commonly found in Jeep vehicles were inspired by some of the early Mercedes engines. I read something about Renault developing the drivetrains for them.

 

 

[240260280]

Just a quick update:  A query to the Mercedes Museum and Archive has been made.  I'll keep this thread updated if anything comes of it.  I requested any historical Mercedes data related to Fuji Precision Industries and Prince Motors.

@HS30-H

Finger's crossed.

[240260280]

No luck from the Mercedes Museum and Archive BUT  as the Hoover vacuum continues to pull data:

Daimler Benz did have licences agreements with Aichi Kokuki KK starting in 1936. Aichi began making copies of the famous DB600 Inverted V12 (ME-109) at the Atsuta Engine Plant in Nagoya....and Aichi was an engine manufacturer for Nakajima Aircraft Company. Part of Nakajima became Fuji Precision Industries (Engine Manufacturer) in 1946 which later merged with its customer, Prince Motor Company, in 1954.

So now have evidence of licence agreements for German Aircraft Engines to Japan that connect Daimler Benz to Prince through a line of engine manufactures! 

Next to find automobile engine agreements.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by 240260280

[240260280]

Maybach HL42 TUKRM came to Japan during WWII in Sd.Kfz. 251.  Not Mercedes but OHC I6 worth noting:

[HS30-H]

3 hours ago, 240260280 said:

Daimler Benz did have licences agreements with Aichi Kokuki KK starting in 1936. Aichi began making copies of the famous DB600 Inverted V12 (ME-109) at the Atsuta Engine Plant in Nagoya....and Aichi was an engine manufacturer for Nakajima Aircraft Company. Part of Nakajima became Fuji Precision Industries (Engine Manufacturer) in 1946 which later merged with its customer, Prince Motor Company, in 1954.

So now have evidence of licence agreements for German Aircraft Engines to Japan that connect Daimler Benz to Prince through a line of engine manufactures! 

Next to find automobile engine agreements.

I'll watch you from the clubhouse bar whilst you gradually work your way around the golf course backwards. No idea how you're going to hole those putts, but still...

Anyone who has an interest in the history of Japanese aviation will (hopefully) know about the myriad licensing agreements that the growing Japanese manufacturers took out with American, British, French, Italian and German companies in the first half of the 20th Century. Big topic. Things start getting a little fragile when you try to carry cause and effect through to the post-war years, as a whole new ball game started. New business relationships and licensing structures needed to be built up, and what had been Japan's aircraft manufacturing industry had to find new things to make and sell. I would say a pre-war and wartime relationship between a German company and a Japanese company was a bit of a stretch to prove much about Nissan's L-gata engine design details, and there's still the fact that Nissan and Prince were competing companies when the Nissan L-gata and Prince G7 engines debuted, so a fragile thread between PMC and MB still doesn't bridge that gap.

Isn't it just more likely that Nissan took elements of the (already old) MB OHC layout and adapted them to suit? There's not much in the way of engine design that hasn't been cribbed/copied/adapted over the years and, once seen, good design and engineering is always going to influence what follows it.

It's interesting and worthy of discussion, but if it feeds the "it's a Mercedes engine!" type mindset then we may as well file it with the D!ck Avery "I designed the 240Z" stuff. At some point it starts being disrespectful to the very good engineers and designers who actually were responsible for the cars we love.       

[240260280]

Ok, putting this thread to bed THANKS TO CARL BECK! @Carl Beck

Mr.  Hiroshi Iida: revealed in an interview with Nostalic Hero Magazine

• he started development of an in-line six cylinder engine in July of 1964.
• the purpose of this was to compete with Toyota, which already had a six cylinder engine in the Toyota Crown. 
• to catch-up with Toyota Mr. Idia’s team, in the Large Engine Development section was given only one year to develop the L20
• the L20 was introduced in Oct. of 1965 in the Cedric.
• the fastest way to develop an in-line six cylinder engine, was to use an existing 4 cylinder block and add two cylinders
• he liked the Mercedes Benz OHC and chain driven valve train - so he used that.

Edited October 26, 2019 by 240260280

[HS30-H]

37 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

Ok, putting this thread to bed THANKS TO CARL BECK! @Carl Beck

Mr.  Hiroshi Iida: revealed in an interview with Nostalic Hero Magazine

• he started development of an in-line six cylinder engine in July of 1964.
• the purpose of this was to compete with Toyota, which already had a six cylinder engine in the Toyota Crown. 
• to catch-up with Toyota Mr. Idia’s team, in the Large Engine Development section was given only one year to develop the L20
• the L20 was introduced in Oct. of 1965 in the Cedric.
• the fastest way to develop an in-line six cylinder engine, was to use an existing 4 cylinder block and add two cylinders
• he liked the Mercedes Benz OHC and chain driven valve train - so he used that.

Meh. Groundhog Day (again).

We've been over this several times before on the forum here. Carl Beck's commissioned 'translation' of the Nostalgic Hero article leaves a lot to be desired and has the usual "made for the USA" type skew which puts the cart so far out in front of the horse that it might as well book a motel room for the night while the poor horse catches up.

At the risk of invoking Deja Vu (all over again....) I'll ask - yes, again....

42 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

the fastest way to develop an in-line six cylinder engine, was to use an existing 4 cylinder block and add two cylinders

...and this was? What 4 cylinder block did Hiroshi Iida "add two cylinders" to?

45 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

he liked the Mercedes Benz OHC and chain driven valve train - so he used that.

What does "he used" mean here?

Personally I'd give Hiroshi Iida the benefit of the doubt and argue that he was 'inspired by' the MB valvetrain layout and packaging. His design was not exactly the same. I don't believe any patents were licensed, let alone infringed. MB must have been satisfied there was enough difference, or just not bothered.

The M180 was an MB engine. The G7 was a Prince engine. The L20 and subsequent 'L-gata module' engines were Nissan engines. 

[HS30-H]

57 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

Ok, putting this thread to bed THANKS TO CARL BECK! @Carl Beck

 

Take a peep here: