RB26dett in the 350z

[Walter Moore]

Just a quick comment without trying to start another fight here...

G.M. is currently phasing out all of their V6 truck engines in favor of double overhead cam inline 6s (and 5s). They are smoother, lighter, and deliever more power from a similar displacement, so not all V6 engines are better than all I6 engines.

Of course the new "G.M" engines are Isuzu designs...

[Alfadog]

Originally posted by Walter Moore

Just a quick comment without trying to start another fight here...

G.M. is currently phasing out all of their V6 truck engines in favor of double overhead cam inline 6s (and 5s). They are smoother, lighter, and deliever more power from a similar displacement, so not all V6 engines are better than all I6 engines.

Of course the new "G.M" engines are Isuzu designs...

Wow, news to me. LONG LIVE THE STRAIGHT SIX!!!

[sblake01]

Originally posted by Walter Moore

Just a quick comment without trying to start another fight here...

G.M. is currently phasing out all of their V6 truck engines in favor of double overhead cam inline 6s (and 5s). They are smoother, lighter, and deliever more power from a similar displacement, so not all V6 engines are better than all I6 engines.

Of course the new "G.M" engines are Isuzu designs...

Yes, but you are comparing a modern V6 to a modern I6 (or I5) rather than comparing a modern V6 to a 20 or 35 year old I6 and I really hope I'm not helping to start another fight!

[daddz]

Why waste a great engine on a 350Z? (I feel justified in saying that as I own a 350Z :classic: ). The RB series (not just the RB26DETT, etc...) deserve to be installed in a light weight application like the S30,S13 to reach their full "raping" potential. The Z31's had RB engines installed in them back in the eighties and it is somewhat like putting silk stockings on a pig (I own a Z31 also..:classic: ); the engines didn't really make the Z31 more desirable some 15 years on and I think a 350Z would look about the same to us in 15 years.

As a brief aside I got to listen to and poke and prod an L28 racing engine this past weekend at Datsun Dynamics and it was absolutely spine tingling to hear a fully race prepped (300hp N/A w/ triple Mikuni 44's) reaching for its rev limiter. Just a small nudge against the throttle linkage and in less than two seconds the tach is reading 5000+ rpm's! The headers were custom made by Stahl and they snake out form the engine in an almost horizontal fashion. The transmission is really sweet as it's sequential 5 speed unit. If only I had the 20k for the engine/transmission combo.! It would "rape" alot of unsuspecting street cars.:stupid:

(I'll be posting pics of that engine soon)

[2ManyZs]

Hmm, poking around Bob Lentz's GT-2 car huh Bob?

I was doing the same thing at Summit when they were pulling the tranny....wanted to get my hands on it, but they kept slapping my wrists....:devious:

That's one car I have to keep my distance from, too much temptation....

[Carl Beck]

Originally posted by Brett240

id have to disagree with that one, V engines are definitly more stable than an inline 6.

lets not forget the the RB26 is based off design that dates back to the early 80's, while the VQ engine is a recent design that makes close to the same power (with no turbo's) as an RB26 STOCK.

It also has behind it all those years of development in things like combustion chamber efficiancy, balance, friction and so on.

the VQ has alot of years of development still in it and wil doubtless be a far superior engine to the now outdated RB.

my 2cents

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "stable". An in--line six has naturally better harmonic balance - due to the firing order and more consistent application of torque strokes to the crank.

Any given engine has been designed with specific design criteria driving the design. The VQ35 is a production engine, driven by cost per unit, as well as any performance criteria established for it - and all that - traded-off with meeting modern emissions standards. So combustion chamber design is based on emissions - as much or more than performance.

The RB series engines have a lot of years of racing development behind them and are pretty well sorted out - you are correct in saying that that VQ's have a lot of years of development and de-bugging ahead.

The RB series (design dating back to the early 60's) were "Racing Built" and one of the most expensive limited production engines Nissan (aka Prince Motors) ever produced. (the RB plant was one of the first one's shut down by Carlos as his cost cutting took over Nissan Japan).

The RB's are capable of prolonged rev's over 14,000 RPM - the V series engines self destruct above 10,000 RPM (natural balance limits, less expensive construction, far less strong blocks are a very real limiting factor). Likewise the amount of boost either engine will endure.

From a "Customers" perspective - the RB engines are far superior to anything Nissan currently offers. From "Nissan's" perspective the VQ is just the ticket... I guess "which is best" depends on what you want to use the engine for.

If you are talking about durability, performance and/or Customer Value - the RB's were far ahead by design - of any of the Nissan V6's. If your talking about cutting costs, meeting emissions standards and still providing reasonable performance for at least the warranty period.. the VQ's are a wonderful design and a big improvement to the VG's in the Z31's and Z32's (rubber belts vs chain driven cam's). The V6 also offers far more "styling" flexibility for use across multiple platforms (with allow for mass production efficiencies for Nissan, fewer spare parts for the dealers to stock, less training for the service tech.'s - all of which save Nissan and their Dealers money. In turn that should save the customers money as well - so the VQ is certainly a cheaper solution).

Lots of things to consider about the design of any engine... As for me, I'd take the RB series engines any day over any of the V6's. I'd take the L series in-line six's any day over any of the V6's as well. The RB and L series are simply better engines from a Customer's perspective, even when you throw in the cost trade-off's.

FWIW,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater,FL USA

[Carl Beck]

Originally posted by sblake01

Yes, but you are comparing a modern V6 to a modern I6 (or I5) rather than comparing a modern V6 to a 20 or 35 year old I6 and I really hope I'm not helping to start another fight!

Hi Stephen:

No fights - but I'd say: that one is comparing an engine designed for competition with an engine designed for production.

There really isn't a whole lot new in engine design - so much as there are new materials, new engine management systems being applied.

What's "modern" about the VQ is production effieiencies by design.. and emissions standards - both of which have driven total engine efficiencies to new levels. (both more HP per cid and better fuel economy).

As for the basic layout, materials and head design - the RB of yesterday looks a whole lot like the M series BMW I6's of today.

FWIW,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater,FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[nixcars]

I was wondering when you (Carl) or Alan T was going to reply to this topic, finally someone that knows what they're on about. You both are a wealth of knowledge & I always like it when either of you set things straight. I hope that members learn from both of you.

Carl, just wondering what you think of the 4 cylinder Nissan SR20DET engine, apart from being of alloy block design & having a square bore/stroke combo are there any other pro's or cons that you may want to share. (please don't take my head off for deciding to put this engine in my Z).

Nick.

[viparz]

Gav, I like you idea about putting the mustang 24 cyl in your Z, send me a pm and we'll get things rolling. Wait until you guys see my 1982 Mazda 323 with nitrous, supercharger and twin 15in subby power and an explosive 52.0 kilowatts of power. It'll be a few years before it gets out of jail for raping a Suzuki Baleno, I'll post pics on the day of release.

My ten bucks.

VIPARZ

[Gav240z]

forgot i even wrote that, guess i was just suprised by the first post.

Carl thanks for the insight and information it makes alot of sense actually.

:cheeky:

[daddz]

Hmm, poking around Bob Lentz's GT-2 car huh Bob?

I have been found out! Actually, Bob has a new car which is off limits (lots of hand slapping) and it is a Z32 silhouette with another L28 which has titanium valves installed along with alot of other equally expensive bits. I was poking and prodding on Bob's old car which is now in a couple of pieces. I would really like to pilot that beast. Since it hadn't been started in a couple of months Bryan let us put some racing fuel in it and warm it up on Saturday! I highly recommend stopping by after hours or on a weekend as it really is a treat to play with until it finds a new home. The 510's are pretty serious as well. There is one in the shop at the moment which is receiving a newly fabricated rocker panel to get it ready for this season. There is also a bare RB20 block sitting upstairs in the storgae area that would like to find a new home as well.

The RB20 block looks to be very strong with the ribbing and I would imagine that it would stand up to much more abuse than a simple old VG block.

[Carl Beck]

Originally posted by nixcars

I was wondering when you (Carl) or Alan T was going to reply to this topic, finally someone that knows what they're on about. You both are a wealth of knowledge & I always like it when either of you set things straight. I hope that members learn from both of you.

Carl, just wondering what you think of the 4 cylinder Nissan SR20DET engine, apart from being of alloy block design & having a square bore/stroke combo are there any other pro's or cons that you may want to share. (please don't take my head off for deciding to put this engine in my Z).

Nick.

Hi Nick:

Sorry to say that I have never worked with the SR20's in any configuration so I really don't know much about them.

One Z owner in Tampa has an SR20DET installed in his 240Z and I will say it makes quite a neat package. Sits will behind the front axles, saves weight and certainly is capable of high HP output.

In talking to the shop owner I understand that the owner of the car has something over $8,500.00 in the installation so far. (complete engine rebuild, plus custom installation, inter-cooler, new turbo, new engine management system, etc. etc etc.). The shop owner thinks they are close to 300 RWHP... but we haven't seen any actual dyno runs yet.

The main disadvantage to the RB's and as far as I know the SR's is that they are Japanese market engines, with a few exported to countries other than the US. So parts availability might be a bit of a hassle should you need something unique to those engines. Likewise finding and buying one that's in decent shape to begin with might be risky. That's one big advantage of the L28 Turbo's here in the US (you know you'll be able to get any parts you need easily and quickly).

You can build an L28 Turbo that will put 250/275 HP to the rear wheels, have easy access to any parts you need and most likely spend a bit less doing it. (the L28 Turbo's are still easy to find for less than a grand in pretty good running condition). Of course the I-6 still has the advantage of better harmonic balance to start with. Here too we know these engines will run way over 300,000 miles without major problems.

One advantage that I saw with the SR20DET in the first generation Z, was the amount of room you had ahead of the engine and behind the radiator core support - easy to run the inter-cooler plumbing and electric fans!!

As far as modification go - I don't seen any "moral" difference between using an L28ET, the SR20DET or a Chevy Small Block... whatever you want and whatever you are willing to spend your money on. In all cases I prefer to see 280Z's used however ;-) They have stronger unibodies, all ready have gas tanks set up for Fuel Injection, and came with the R200 rear ends... if your going to gain all that extra HP a few extra pounds on the unibody won't matter much anyway. <VBG>

FWIW,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater,FL USA

69, 71, 72, 72 & 73 BRE-Z

83 280ZX Turbo